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Support & Strategies to Prioritize Mental Health Over the Holidays
Better understand depression with insights from Dr. Sibcy, a licensed clinical psychologist from Centra Piedmont Psychiatric Center. Discover how depression's isolating nature can trap individuals in a cycle of avoidance, and learn strategies to break free from this loop. We delve into the therapeutic approaches that have proven effective, such as cognitive and cognitive behavioral therapy, and discuss the role of medication in treating moderate to severe depression.
With the holiday season's emotional demands, we explore the importance of setting boundaries and finding balanced ways to interact with family and social settings without compromising mental well-being.
The episode takes a serious turn as we address the potential emergence of suicidal thoughts linked with depression, especially when compounded by isolation or substance use. Dr. Sibcy emphasizes the importance of supporting loved ones while avoiding the pitfall of becoming overbearing.
If you’re in crisis, call, or text the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988 for help.
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Hi, welcome to, and so Much More. My name is KCami Smith and I am your host, and I am here with Dr Sipsy at our Psychiatry and Behavioral Health Service line here at Sintra, and I'm really excited. Over the next two months, we are going to be having conversations surrounding the importance of our mental health and what that looks like in very different scenarios, especially around the holidays, when I think we tend to not want to have these conversations, but they can be so vital, they can be so helpful, and so thank you so much for coming and talking to us specifically about just how important mental health is around this holiday season, but also how important mental health is period. So, before we jump in, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Well, I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and I've been at Piedmont Psychiatric Center for a little over 25 years, and I'm also a professor of psychology clinical psychology at Liberty, okay and so that provides lots of opportunities to work with students and hopefully integrate them into Centra's mental health system?
Cami Smith:Yes, I hope so.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:I love hearing that. Yeah, so that's what I do and I work with folks who are depressed and chronically depressed, and I one time calculated how many hours have I actually spent talking to depressed people in therapy it's been about 32,000 hours, oh my goodness. A little bit of time.
Cami Smith:That's a lot of time talking to people, and that's I mean that in and of itself. To hold space for people in that way for that much time, I feel like that could be a whole nother series. How do you caretake yourself when you're caretaking for others on a regular basis? Um, and, and you know, one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this specifically is because, um, we do our chna, with our community health needs assessment, every three years and, over and over and over, there is an identified mental health crisis in our entire health system area, not just lynchburg, not just danville, not just just Gretna, bedford, all of the places. It is so prevalent and, um, and it's we need to talk about it.
Cami Smith:It's so important, and I think depression specifically because, um, we think depression looks like X. This is depression. We see it portrayed in movies and television shows a very specific way, and it doesn't always look that way. And so why don't we start with just defining what is depression Like clinically, what is depression, and how do you know, when someone comes to talk to you, that this is what they're walking through? Or do they come to you because they already know that? What does that look like?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Well, I mean clinically where I'm at, at Piedmont Psychiatric Center. Usually by the time people get to me, they've already been diagnosed with depression, but and they haven't responded to treatments right. So so it's. You know, we're usually sort of secondary or tertiary treatment that they've failed some other treatments and haven't really responded to things, and that's when we tend to get them.
Cami Smith:So you're like the big guns. You got to bring in the big guns.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Well, it's kind of you know there's different stages of trying to get help.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:And hopefully you know if people aren't getting better, yeah, and we'll talk about some of the things that help. But what depression is? It's a mood disorder, really it's an emotional disorder. But with depression you get this change in your mood. Where it goes, you're either sad or you lose your interest and motivation, or both right. So you need at least one of those symptoms that shows up and last for at least two weeks every day, most of the day. Okay.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So now sometimes people feel sad on and off, you know, but it's not every day or it's not lasting the whole day for the most part. So you got one of those, at least one of those two symptoms, and then you know a total of five symptoms just to meet the criteria. So one of those plus, like a loss of energy, loss of appetite, changes in your sleep, feelings of hopelessness or helplessness, and, you know, feeling worthless, and a lot of times suicide thoughts come into that. So there's a bunch of combinations of symptoms that people can have, but the key is that it sets in and it stays, so it's not just like a day or a couple of days or a little while. It sets up and it starts to really interfere with just how well you can function, and most of the time you're going to also have anxiety with it. So in addition to feeling kind of sad and down and unmotivated, then people start to feel really anxious too. That's a very common part of depression. It's not a core symptom, but it usually accompanies it.
Cami Smith:Yeah, so can depression. It obviously will not look the same for everyone, but I've heard before that it looks very different from biological male to biological female. Have you seen that, and how do you see it manifest?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Well, there are some differences but, from you know, for the most part we still look at each individual, whether they're male or female. Sometimes you can have one presentation versus another and it doesn't always depend on their gender, but a lot of times females are more prone to feel the sadness and more prone to actually cry when they feel upset, whereas males tend to not do that as much and more feel the anhedonia right, the loss of pleasure, loss of interest and motivation and sort of the shutdown physically of their motivation and energy.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So not that they can't have both right. So males and females, now, the content of the kind of things that they're depressed about may, you know, vary considerably. You know, the kind of things that might trigger depression for females, uh, and for maybe different for the, for what they are, for males, just depending.
Cami Smith:So you know that really covers a lot of just like, what does depression look like? How does it work and, um, so, when you do see people and and they're having obviously very, very individualistic, which I love that, I love that it's not like you start these categories and you start a flow chart Am I this, Am I that?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Yes, no.
Cami Smith:Just really paying attention to how you feel, and so the patients that you do see, like, what are some really practical things? Now, obviously, if they're coming to you, some of the very practical things maybe didn't work, but what would you say are some practical things that those who are watching, if they're feeling this way or if they're kind of like, wait a minute, that sounds like what I'm experiencing, right, what are some things they can do?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Well, I usually have this discussion with folks I want to say well, let's just understand a little bit about how depression works. Right, there's the symptoms of depression, yeah, but then there's what are the processes that maintain it Right? Usually, processes that maintain it right Usually, if you've had your first major depression, there's a clear cut stressor. Right, there's four kinds of stressors that trigger depression changes in your life, right, they can be good or bad. Like, you can graduate college right and get depressed. You can get married and get depressed. You can have a child and get depressed and not graduate divorce and have a failed pregnancy and get depressed. So positive things and negative things that are, changes can trigger depression.
Cami Smith:Interesting Okay.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Interpersonal conflicts is also a really big one, right, and sometimes you may not be conflicting with somebody. You may be running from the conflict, you may have moved from California to Virginia to get away from difficult people, but it still follows you and it can trigger depression and then loss, of course through death, and then loneliness. Now, loneliness is usually something that accompanies the other three stressors. So if you move or you go through a big transition, loneliness may be a part of what gets activated. But once a person is triggered, there are biological changes that happen in the brain that zap your energy, motivation and sense of pleasure.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Now, that in itself is not depression until people get into this loop we call it the depressive loop. So when you feel that way, it's very easy for people to stop doing things. So if you don't feel like doing things, then you tend to not do them and you get into what we call an avoidance pattern of behavior. You stop doing things that give you a sense of mastery and a sense of pleasure, right, and you withdraw. When you do that, interestingly, it has an effect on the brain, because the brain's basically like, hey, if you're not going to do this stuff, then I'm not going to give you the chemistry you need to want to do it.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So the less you do, the less you feel like doing. The less you feel like doing, the less you do. Now you're in the loop, and then once you get into the loop, then you get stuck into these patterns of ruminating like why do I feel so bad? What's wrong with me? Why do I feel so bad? What's wrong with me? You get stuck in that loop and worry which is another pattern what if it never gets better? And helplessness nothing I do will make it better and hopelessness starts to build in and then suicide thoughts can come in. So that's kind of how depression works. So what we tell people is that the primary weapon that it has to get you down and out is this avoidance pattern.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Right. So no matter how badly you feel, see, depression is going to try to trick you into believing this lie.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:I have to feel better before I start getting back into my life. That make sense, yeah, so we talk about how you got to get out of your head and back into your life. Well, but depression says I got to feel better before I do, and so that's one thing that we have to address. That's a cognitive distortion that's specific to depression. When people aren't depressed, they don't think that way.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Right, I mean, if you wake up in the morning you don't go. Oh yes, cannot wait to get to work today. Right, you're not driving to work. All right, people kind of know that it'll come right. You get there and start doing and you'll get to work and you, you know, you'll, you know your energy and your motivation will come.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:But when people get into the depressive loop or they're prone to depression, then they think I can't do things. I ask depressed people all the time do you feel like you can't do things if you don't feel motivated and they'll go? Yeah, I'm like you imagine where your life would be if you actually believe that all the time. Right, I mean, how many of us woke up when we were kids and said I don't feel like going to school today. Mom and our parents go. Oh well, I guess you can't go then.
Cami Smith:Yeah, yeah, it's true.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Right. So it's unique to depression, so we have to help alert people that this is going to be Okay. The basic thing is if this is the first time you've been depressed, it's a little easier to help you identify what were the things that you did when you felt good, what things gave you a sense of accomplishment or mastery?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:What kind of things did you do that made you feel connected to others? What things did you do that you found pleasure and enjoyment in? And we generate what we call a list of activities, okay, and then we start to schedule them. Now, the reason we schedule them is that when you're depressed, you're going to wait till you feel like doing it and we're like that's mood dependent behavior. It's got you, you know it's got a lock on you if you get locked into that.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So you schedule it and you commit to doing it for 15 minutes. Right, because you can do anything for 15 minutes with zero motivation or energy. Okay, right, so you just do 15 minutes, whatever. It is like you're not going to clean your whole house or the whole kitchen. You're just going to do these dishes or unload this dishwasher or clean off this counter. At the end of that 15 minutes, you set a timer. If you have no more energy and you feel just as bad as you did when you started, give yourself a way to go. You did it and take a break, but most of the time, people will find that their energy comes online once they get started.
Cami Smith:Yeah, it's like triggered, and then you want to keep going.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Exactly, right, and. And so we schedule small things with them, okay, and begin to add more and more things back into the schedule of things that you need to do. Right, but also socializing, right. Another effect that depression has is it tries to isolate you. It tends to tell you that other people are not going to be interested to talk to you. They're going to see that you're depressed, or they're going to ask you nosy questions, right, like where have you been? Why have you come around those kind of things? And so you don't want to put up with it, so you avoid them and you know.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So we sort of schedule you to kind of get back into it. And if people ask nosy questions, like, how do you deal with that effectively and work on that? But it's all about breaking this loop. So when you get triggered, the response is the avoidance behavior. We call that the trap, trigger response, avoidance pattern. What we want to do is build what's called trigger patterns or the response of activation, right, so you get back on track, right Out of the loop. Get back on track, get back into your life of the things that you've done and that you've enjoyed.
Cami Smith:Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So that's the key. If we can get people doing that, then depression loses nearly all of its power. Now you might still feel badly. You may have some things that are upsetting you?
Cami Smith:Yeah, you still need to work through some things.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Exactly. You may have some of those things. People may have memories, they may have loss that they need to resolve, they may have relationship conflicts that they need to deal with and effectively resolve. I won't take anything away from that, but you can't really work on those that effectively if you're in a really depressed state. So we want to take the wheels away from depression, take away most of its power, so that you can then start to work on that stuff a little more effectively.
Cami Smith:Yeah, that is so practical and it's so manageable when you, when you say it like that, um, for those who haven't taken the step to to really get into like a counseling relationship or um, they are maybe on their own and scheduling that thing Like there's no one there to say did you do that thing? Um, well, I mean, what is? What does that look like? What is your encouragement other than go find some accountability? Or is that the answer? Is there like an outside component of this?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Yeah, it usually helps to work with a therapist who's doing some form of either cognitive therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy or impersonal therapies that focus on, like, getting you out of depression. And breaking the depressive loop is one thing. Dealing with life problems, life stressors, unresolved grief, those are all really important but won't necessarily break you out of the depressive loop.
Cami Smith:Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So that's one. The other piece is if your depression is moderate to severe, then we usually think that antidepressants plus medication are the best combination. Okay, right. So if you're already taking antidepressants, unfortunately they only get about 30% of people to actual remission. If you add therapy to that, you can get a lot higher rate, with a lower relapse rate. For people with mild depression, we do encourage them. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association now recommends that with mild depression, you don't necessarily want to start with medication. It's better to start with an evidence-based therapy, because it's more likely to get you well and stay well, whereas an antidepressant for mild depression doesn't really beat placebo and you may then actually stay on medication longer.
Cami Smith:Yeah, I think that's important to note because I know I have experienced being referred to medication before immediately, and people in my life and a lot of times when someone suggests you should probably go on this antidepressant. It's a lot to think about and to consider and it feels like a relief, like a solution, like it's like, oh okay, well, this is going to do something, and so I think it's important to stop and know that that might not be the best option in that moment and to really stop and think, because that's a very, that's a pretty heavy statistic you just shared.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Yeah, no, it's not a one-off study. Yeah, no, it's not a one-off study.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:It's you know when the American Psychiatric Association, just you know, has revised its, you know recommendations based on what they've seen in the research. And I'm not saying that because we want more people to come to counseling or to therapy. We actually have a huge deficit of people out there. There's just not a lot of counselors or psychologists. I'm actually on the board of psychology for Virginia, so we look at those numbers of like, well, how many licensed clinical psychologists do we have? And it's a staggering number of people that we have who are licensed, who aren't practicing. So, like you said, sometimes the field can kind of burn people out and they kind of wouldn't imagine it's a lot right.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Yeah, so we're, you know we're trying to get more and more people in the that are available, but also are, you know, offering evidence-based therapies. So I, you know, I I'd hate to say that just every therapy is equal or they're not. There's some therapies that do probably a better job at helping with, like depression. Yeah, so you got some options available to you, though there's a lot of good therapists in Lynchburg that know how to treat depression.
Cami Smith:Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. So there are options that know how to treat depression. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I love that. So there are options. So I do want to kind of change gears a little bit, because even we, we really defined a lot of what depression looks like, how it works, what it can do to even our thought patterns, our brain waves or firing, and so around the holidays, everything I know, at least from my perspective. I don't want to blanket statement, you know our entire community, but there's a lot, there's everything just kind of intensifies. Everyone wants you to be cheerful, everyone wants you to come to their celebration. They want you to wear this, you know, elf hat and smile in this picture or ugly sweater, or ugly sweater contest.
Cami Smith:And um, and that can be really hard when there's something serious going on and you're you're carrying the weight of depression, and so, um, what does? Does that approach change around the holidays when you have patients come in? Is there like a switching of gears? Or? And then also and we can kind of ease into this next part of the question what can those of us do who are encouraging those? Put on this elf hat, wear this ugly sweater. How can we be more respectful, more mindful of our surroundings and of our community?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So again, it's person to person, right. So on the one hand, you don't want to get overly committed to doing things, right? So if you create so much stress that you don't really have time to sort of do the things that you need to do, yeah, then yeah, you want to be able to set some boundaries on that, because you'll get burnout and then you'll get bitter and that can make things worse. Yeah, boundaries on that, because you'll get burnout and then you'll get bitter and that can make things worse. On the other hand, if you're feeling depressed and you know feel very motivated, you know feel like going, I recommend go.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Yeah, go and be present Right now. If you go to a party and because, well, my therapist told me I need to go to the party, right, and then you're disengaged, right, you're over in the corner, you know, staring off at the, you know, the salad bowl or the fruit punch bowl and you're not really talking to people and just engaging.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Just be friendly, just be engaged. You don't have to go into any great depth about what you've been struggling with or anything like that what you've been struggling with or anything like that and try to have some real conversations with people. Talk to them, you know, if you have some social skill things. Talk to your therapist about how to just have a normal, easy conversation. I usually tell people you know, look, if you don't know somebody and meet them, there's like three questions you can ask and that'll get the ball rolling. Like where are you from? How'd you end up in Lynchburg? That's always a story.
Cami Smith:If you are from.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Lynchburg. Where'd you go to school and where'd you graduate? Did you go to college? That's all you need to get a conversation going. If it dies out, then fine. If not, then you've got a conversation. But you do need to go and engage. Don't use your depression, Don't let it trick you into staying home. Right, but don't do too much. Doesn't mean that you you know, like I said, you don't want to stress yourself out. Yes, Other people have to deal with family.
Cami Smith:See, that is a whole. I mean yes. That's a whole other issue, right, but I think just as important because, yeah, sometimes it's harder to say no to family, it's harder to wait and again you should go, but then you probably need to work with somebody you know.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:And how do I inoculate myself to jerks? Right, because all family has jerks and you might be very sensitized to what you think is you know uncle, this person or cousin, this person who's always, you know, trying to make you look bad, make themselves look good, or there's always some kind of family stuff. So how do you go and emotionally not get sucked into that?
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Right Now. That's a really important skill.
Cami Smith:I mean for anyone Right right.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Yes, and it can trigger depression. You may not be depressed, but when you get around these people, it can pull for it. But our tendency is to say, well, avoidance actually will make things worse in the long run. So how do you get yourself? You work with your therapist to figure out how do I inoculate myself from other people's rather unsavory behavior. I can be around these people but not get kind of pulled in. Now, that's a great skill to work on, and we usually tell people though, like, for example, if you're going to go visit family and they're toxic, don't stay with them, right? I mean, if you can go visit and stay in a hotel, so when they start getting toxic, you can go. It's been fun, we're going to roll, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Set some serious boundaries You've got to really set some boundaries. So don't. If you've got a really toxic family and you're going to go visit them, then you know, do what you can to not stay with them but visit, so you can go and eat dinner and sort of enjoy things. But once them, once they, if this toxicity starts up, see if you can stay inoculated. If you can't, then you can, then you can go.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Well, you know you have an exit strategy yeah you always go into these situations saying, oh well, we're able to stay for this amount of time because we got this to go to. So you got sort of you're out, uh, so that you're not sort of committing to stay there for eight hours, for 12 hours, you're coming to stay for a little while.
Cami Smith:Because those holiday gatherings can be so long.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Oh right, right. So you really want to set some contingency plans going into it so it doesn't look so disastrous when you're packing your bags to leave?
Cami Smith:Yeah, and maybe not even in a negative way, maybe just knowing that that's how much you can handle right now. Right, and so go in anticipating. It's like putting on a mindset, like I'm going to go in there, I'm going to handle this and I'm going to go.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Right, it's just like any other form of inoculation, right? You got to get small doses of it to build up your tolerances for dealing with it.
Cami Smith:That's great advice.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So you're not going to just like go in and, you know, go head first into the deep end.
Cami Smith:So what about for those of us hosting said family gatherings, or for those of us who are throwing the friend group Christmas party or, you know, organizing the ugly holiday sweater photo?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Well, you know, again, it depends on the. It depends, right? Oh, you mean for somebody that you know who's depressed?
Cami Smith:Yeah, like if there's someone around us that we know that's something that they're walking through, how can we respect them, how can we be mindful of what they're walking through?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Well, you know it's hard, right, Because it depends on how close you are to them, right? Like a lot of times people don't know, like if they're depressed, you know, they probably don't want to talk about their depression. So, you know, just asking them how they're doing, be engaging with them, If they're not super talkative, you can sort of talk with them and engage them just about life and what they're up to and how things are going. But, you know, be friendly, but don't feel like you have to solve anything for them or you know, kind of give them any advice. In fact, advice giving might be the worst thing that you could do.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:You know, one of the things we learn as counselors and psychologists is you know people may come and go hey, you know I've been struggling with this, that or the other and I usually go. Well, you know, I know a really good therapist Right, because advice giving people may want that from you. But giving advice is always a double-edged sword. I mean, if it's just something like this person is a good therapist or this person's really helpful, but try not to get yourself roped into giving people advice. Yeah yeah, so.
Cami Smith:And people don't want to feel like you're trying to fix them. Exactly, and so I think, just being mindful, there's so much to be said for just being mindful and considering each individual.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Right.
Cami Smith:Like you said, because it's going to look different for everyone.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Right, and that's one of the things for again. If you struggle with depression, how do you relate to people? If you don't say anything to them, then they don't know. Right, so they can't be supportive.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:But if you give them too much right and you kind of overwhelm them, then they're either going to do two things they're going to ghost you right, or they're going to try to fix you and you're not going to like either one Right.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So you had to find that middle ground where you're able to. You know, if you want to be honest, like no things have been tough for me this year, but I'm working on it or I'm getting better, I'm moving in the right direction. So it kind of gives them a sense that everything's not perfect and great. But I also don't need you to sort of rescue me or think that I need you know some some cheerleading.
Cami Smith:Yeah, I don't need a life raft quite yet.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Right, right, right, and that way it's. It's a little safer for you and you know, for them. They can be like, yeah, no, things are hard, or you know, they may know what's going on with your life and make those kind of comments, but don't expect too much from them. Yeah, right, but also realize you don't want that much from them, right Cause if they, if they did try to rescue you, you probably wouldn't like it.
Cami Smith:Yeah, no, this is all. This is all very, very good and practical advice. I hope that those who are listening really feel like, um, especially I'm I'm sure you know when, know, when I have a conversation like this, I think about specific people in my life who I know are walking through this and having just some ways to respect them and love them in, you know, a mindful way. That's going to be a huge deal, especially around the holidays.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Again, it's a double-edged sword. When people get depressed, they withdraw and isolate.
Cami Smith:Again, it's a double-edged sword.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:When people get depressed, they withdraw and isolate, if you don't say anything to them, they will think see, nobody cares. But a lot of times if you ask them like hey, you ought to come up and you know we'll share some eggnog.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:They'll be like oh well, I don't know Right, and you have to be tolerant of both ends and say well, I just thought I would ask. But if you want to come up, just let me know. I'd love to you know. So at least you've reached out to them. They may or may not take it, but not reaching out isn't necessarily what they want either.
Cami Smith:Yeah.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:So just be aware of that.
Cami Smith:Okay, is there anything that we haven't already talked about that you feel is really important to mention as we're talking about this subject?
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Well, I mean, I guess the last thing is that I mean anytime you're talking about depression, you know people can start to have suicide thoughts, and suicide thoughts in and of themselves are not a risk for depression, even though people think they are.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:It is true that people who commit suicide do have suicide thoughts before they do it, but most people who have suicide thoughts don't do anything right. So, you know, everybody's had suicide thoughts probably. But when you're depressed and you start to, you know, really get isolated and withdrawn, and you know, especially if a person's drinking alcohol or taking any kind of substances, then the risk level starts to go up a great deal. And so, for the individual, you need to be aware of that right and making sure that you're checking in with whoever your provider is yeah, yeah, provider is and for people who know them, if you know they're depressed but you also know they're getting really isolated and they're getting withdrawn, and you know that's usually definitely want to check in on them Again, you got to find that balance of not being over controlling but not just thinking that giving them their space is what they need, because it's not necessarily true.
Cami Smith:Yeah Well, thank you so much. This has been so informative and I love that you ended in that way. So I do want to mention the National Suicide Hotline, 988-24-HOURS-A-DAY. If that is something that you're struggling with, that is a resource to you at all times and then to just reach out, have important conversations, whether you're the person who is feeling depressed, where you're sensing that someone you love is there. Um, just, you know, let's be there for each other. This holiday season. It can get rough.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Yeah, uh, I do have a um, a little manual that's called. It's called Beating the Blues or Blues Busters, and it covers a lot of this stuff. Okay, is that?
Cami Smith:something we can make available like a downloadable PDF. Yeah, okay, we'll put that in the description so that that can be a resource for you all as you're watching this. Something for you to read, something for you to pass on. Thank you, that's wonderful, and thank you all as you're watching this, something for you to read, something for you to pass on.
Dr. Gary Sibcy:Thank you.
Cami Smith:That's wonderful, and thank you all for joining us & So Much More.
