Men's Health Beyond the Surface with Cody Sliger, DNP

Nurse Practitioner Cody Sliger reveals the hidden crisis in men's healthcare through both professional expertise and personal experience. Despite significant advances in medical science, men continue to suffer worse health outcomes than women, largely because they avoid seeking help until it's too late.

The conversation dives deep into why this happens. Harvard research confirms that societal expectations of masculinity directly contribute to higher mortality rates when men eventually reach hospitals with chronic conditions. When seeking help is viewed as weakness, and when work schedules make healthcare appointments financially impossible, men face an impossible choice between immediate family needs and their own wellbeing.

Whether you're concerned about your own health or someone you care about, this episode provides vital insights that could literally save lives. Reach out, speak up, and remember that seeking help isn't weakness—it's the strongest choice you can make.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Cody Sligar
• 3:40 Why Men Neglect Their Health
• 9:40 The Connection Between Mental and Physical Health
• 13:09 Warning Signs and Prevention Strategies
• 19:14 Having Effective Healthcare Conversations
• 26:48 Crucial Screenings and Mental Health Resources

Transcript

Cami Smith: 0:00

Hi and welcome to, and so Much More. I am your host, Cami Smith, and I am here with Cody Sliger, who is a NP nurse practitioner here at Centra Health, and you provide care predominantly at Virginia Baptist, correct? Yes?

Cody Sliger: 0:16

that is correct.

Cami Smith: 0:17

So what do you do here at Centra?

Cody Sliger: 0:19

So my role is actually pretty unique. I'm a family nurse practitioner, but what I'm doing right now is working with a team of other advanced practice providers actually to provide care on the medical aspects for the patients who are in inpatient psychiatric care, admitted to one of our inpatient psychiatric units, and they have diabetes. That's something that we cover a lot, while, definitely, patients are unfortunately getting sicker and sicker is what we're finding, and so what our team does is we look at, you know, their home medicines, make sure that all their home medications are restarted, and we work as a team with the psychiatrist to make sure that everything is taken care of, make sure they're on the right dose of insulin, make sure that their electrolytes are all situated and that their blood work looks good. So the best way to describe it, long story short, is our team provides a lot of the medical care on the inpatient psychiatric units.

Cami Smith: 1:20

Okay, this is very cool because I'm kind of putting pieces together in my head. Even working at Centra, I feel like I'm still learning a lot about the service lines and the truly incredible of things, so that when someone comes in for a more like health, like physical health illness, they are there to catch any kind of mental health issues or concerns that may arise. So you are the flip side of that we're the flip side of that.

Cody Sliger: 1:57

Okay, very cool, we're the medical consultants for the inpatient adult psychiatric units. Okay, so the way I tell patients is hi, my name is Cody, I'm a family nurse practitioner. While you're here with us, we want to address your mental health, but also my team we're going to work on addressing your physical health as well. Wow, that way, we provide the safest, most effective care to our patients.

Cami Smith: 2:20

Yeah, and comprehensive care, yes, absolutely keep those eyes open to all aspects of health and and not to like cheesily segue, but that's kind of we're talking a little bit about an all looking at all aspects of health.

Cami Smith: 2:35

So it's mental health month in june and these awareness months should be more than the occasional reel that you come across on your social channels where it tells you to go to the doctor, go get your screening Very important, please do those things. However, we want to have more of an in-depth conversation about men's health, because I think that when you think about you know, okay, high level, what is it important to talk about with men? A lot of times it's get your screenings, go and have a conversation with your primary care provider and mental health isn't really considered. But from your experience and I don't want to share your story you have a large experience with your mental health, in your physical health, kind of really working in tandem and how you can be more successful with taking care of yourself physically when you're taking care of yourself mentally. So I do have questions here. But first, why don't you share your story?

Cody Sliger: 3:32

Sure, absolutely so. Hi, cody Sliger, I'm a family nurse practitioner. I'm actually a Lynchburg transplant. I'm originally from Texas. My family and I we moved up here from Lubbock, texas, up to Lynchburg transplant. I'm originally from Texas. My family and I we moved up here to from Lubbock, texas, up to Lynchburg about six months ago.

Cami Smith: 3:51

Wow, you're very new, Very new, okay so far, we absolutely love it.

Cody Sliger: 3:56

We're definitely putting our roots down. We plan on staying here for the long haul, for sure.

Cody Sliger: 4:01

I spent my entire life in Texas, living in Lubbock. After I graduated from nurse practitioner school I actually went on to work in a primary care center, a federally qualified health center, for almost five years and I provided care. We always joked from womb to tomb, so literally from. My youngest patients would be two week old babies that were coming in for their first ever well child checks. To wow, I believe my oldest patient I ever had was in their like 100s, like, I believe, one okay, so wow, that is a large span of care and I absolutely loved it.

Cody Sliger: 4:43

I actually went and I got my doctorate of nursing practice and with that comes a bit of a research project, so to speak, and my research project was geared at improving colorectal cancer screenings amongst underserved populations. Wow, one thing that we found out from that research actually was that men are a lot less likely to get their colorectal cancer screenings, at least locally and regionally where the project took place.

Cami Smith: 5:08

Yeah.

Cody Sliger: 5:09

After that I actually worked as a hospitalist nurse practitioner for a year in Lubbock before moving up here and I'm in the role I'm in now. So one thing that I really like about this role, and just the hospitalist role in general, was that the work life balance for me personally worked a lot better. Yeah, so that's why people ask Absolutely, absolutely, which we'll probably get into a little bit about that with the questions.

Cami Smith: 5:40

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's my story so far.

Cody Sliger: 5:41

Yeah, yeah, that's my story so far.

Cami Smith: 5:42

So you have done some research around now, specifically colorectal cancer, but as a whole and we're going to get into this a little bit but, like, when it comes to men's focus on health and taking care of themselves, why do you think it is that they don't prioritize that?

Cody Sliger: 6:03

So we know two things. First of all, in 2021, harvard actually asked the same question and they realized that if a man is admitted to the hospital with an exacerbation of a chronic illness, which is essentially a flare up of a chronic illness, they were more likely to have increased morbidity and mortality compared to women. Wow, okay, and at the end of the day, they came to the conclusion that it was because most of those men did not have primary care where they could address these issues before they got out of hand.

Cami Smith: 6:35

So there was no relationship where these things were being talked about on the front end. Wow, Okay.

Cody Sliger: 6:40

So they looked at why why that was happening, and I'll speak to this more anecdotally from my own personal experience, the first being societal norms. Yeah, so traditionally men are seen as weak if they go seeking out help, especially medical help. Yeah, I think there's a certain level of competitiveness that men are used to. Whenever we go somewhere to talk about ourselves, we want to talk about our accomplishments, our ego, etc.

Cody Sliger: 7:07

Not your ailments, not our ailments, because that's an imperfection and that could be an issue, a slight on our masculinity. So that was the first issue that they saw, the second being that most men are still in trades or, you know for lack of better terms blue collar positions, or they might be in middle management or upper management positions with very, very strict schedules. So one thing that I've noticed is that whenever I worked in primary care, I worked from 8 am to 8 pm three days a week, and we would have a lot of patients that would come in late in the evening, especially men, because that's when they get off work. Yeah, so they would get off work, they'd go to their doctor's appointments, their primary care appointments. But I had many men that I would ask them you know why have you missed your last few appointments?

Cody Sliger: 7:55

I remember there was one time it was devastating this man was working in a construction business and he was getting paid by the hour. If he did not work, he did not get paid, even if it was for a doctor's visit, and he told me I'm the breadwinner for my family. I had to make a decision Do I go to the doctor and get my diabetes checked up?

Cami Smith: 8:15

or do.

Cody Sliger: 8:16

I pay the bills and put food on the table. And that is devastating. That is devastating. So those are the main two reasons and I agree with those those reasons and those barriers that we see to men's health care.

Cami Smith: 8:28

That is a lot of pressure, absolutely Goodness. So that really brings to light the mental health side of things. When they're not taking care of themselves and a lot of times they may want to and they're having to make these really difficult decisions, and that takes a mental toll on anybody over time. Um, but especially there is this pressure put on men, like I know this feels like a blanket statement and it's different for everybody, but for the most part there's a lot of pressure put on men to provide for their families, and to have to choose between the two is a lot. And so and I imagine they're probably at that point there is now a new identified need that's rising to the surface of I need to take care of myself mentally, but I've already got this over here that I can't take care of physically, and then they're having to choose between that, right, so how, how do you, can you, maybe, maybe not even how like? Can you treat those things together, or does it need to be spread, kind of separate, and treated separately?

Cody Sliger: 9:33

The best way to put it is my analogy that I tell patients is that we look at mental health and physical health. They are one of the few pillars of health or, sorry, the few pillars of personal healthcare and wellness. Okay, so if we look at them as like cornerstones of a house, what happens? When one cornerstone crumbles? A lot of that stress and weight is put on the other. Yeah, so you do have to work in tandem to take care of both the physical health and the mental health, Because if one goes, that's going to put a lot of stress on the other and it works two ways really.

Cody Sliger: 10:09

So if we see someone that has a debilitating injury for example, when I was a bedside nurse I used to work in the burning unit those are pretty debilitating injuries we would always get a psychiatry consultation because that's a pretty radical, life-changing issue. However, we also see on the flip side of things. We see that patients who have anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, especially with men they're more likely to develop chronic conditions like coronary artery disease, diabetes, they're at risk for a heart attack. And you know that's a very broad, 50,000 feet example. But on a microscopic molecular level, increased stress, be it psychological or physical stress actually does cause damage to the DNA in the body. So you have issues with weakened protectors of the body for preventative agents like coronary artery disease. You actually have a weakening of the endothelial, the inner lining of a blood vessel. You have increased risk for cancer when they're stressed.

Cody Sliger: 11:11

So it really is a two-way street when it comes to physical and mental health.

Cami Smith: 11:15

Yeah, that's so. I've heard people say one impacts the other, but to hear you put it so specifically, like that it breaks down the inside of a blood vessel, like that, like I hope that those who are listening like that is a takeaway. That is a visual of of physical breakdown over time, Um, and I think it's helpful to first I mean, maybe just I'm I'm a visual person, Maybe it's just helpful for me but to actually have an understanding and, I guess, evidence of physical health bearing down and mental health bearing down on each other, kind of in tandem. So what are some signs like because you can't see the inside of your blood vessels, what are some signs that men or the women who have someone in their life that they love, that they can look for, that these breakdowns are happening?

Cody Sliger: 12:10

Well, definitely. I hear from men a lot when it comes to high cholesterol and high blood pressure. They are the silent killers because a lot of times it is until something like a massive heart attack, stroke, end-stage renal disease develop that they don't have any symptoms. So I'll have a lot of my male patients that they come in and I'm like hey, how are you doing with your cholesterol medicine? I'm not taking it. Why? I feel perfectly fine, I have no issues. Same thing with blood pressure.

Cami Smith: 12:39

I feel, fine.

Cody Sliger: 12:41

So that part can be really really hard to address, definitely once we start getting concerned about end organ damage related to the stress on the body, like with blood pressure a lot of times patients will be like oh, I have severe headaches, I've got vision changes. Unfortunately, that is a red flag that there might already be something that is occurring that that damage on the inside of those blood there might already be something that is occurring, yeah, that that damage on the inside of those blood vessels may already be done.

Cody Sliger: 13:08

So we go from primary prevention, which is basically stopping a problem before it can even happen, to secondary prevention, which is trying to catch the problem early. And then there's tertiary prevention, which is the damage is already done. We're just trying to prevent any further damage or issues from happening. So sometimes it can be really hard to catch those signs. But that's why it's also so important to go to a primary care provider for people to get their yearly blood work, to check their cholesterol, their thyroid, to get their blood pressure checked regularly, to talk about their family history if they have a family history of heart attacks at an earlier age, and the same can also be said the same is also said for mental health, especially when it comes to men.

Cody Sliger: 13:54

You know, I'll hear a lot of men that say I'm so tired and I'm exhausted, I have a low libido and I don't know why. And there were many times when I worked in primary care where we would do a depression screening and say, hey, you've got a lot of the signs of depression. And you know, it'd be really hard to have that candid conversation, but it's something that is worth having with patients.

Cody Sliger: 14:15

It was always nice when I could get the patient on an SSRI that helps treat depression and they would come back in two months and be like I never thought I would feel this good, like this is what normal feels like. You have these men that they're literally walking around thinking.

Cami Smith: 14:33

I'm a man. I'm supposed to feel awful my entire life.

Cody Sliger: 14:36

This is normal. Yeah, because I mean, even for me. When I became a new dad, I remember being told by someone close to me you have a baby. Now, you don't exist. You exist to take care of your wife and children and yeah, that was kind of, that's not true.

Cami Smith: 14:52

It's not true, please. Yeah, it's not.

Cody Sliger: 14:55

Wow, that's interesting, told that. So think of, and you know, think about men decades ago, generations ago ago, how they felt as well that shift. Yeah, absolutely.

Cami Smith: 15:05

Wow, just feeling insignificant. That's not.

Cami Smith: 15:08

Yeah exactly Insignificant, yet vitally important, because you're also expected to take care of and provide for your family and find that balance. You've got to get rid of some of these societal norms, exactly. So how do you get ahead of that if, if you, typically you're not seeing people until they're no longer just red flags it is like the white flag they're surrendering their bodies, are like I'm done, I can't do this anymore, right? So how, other than kind of having that relationship with the primary care provider? What are some like lifestyle changes and I mean some of these might be cliche, so, as you're listening, like don't just turn yourself off for a minute here as we're talking about this but truly, what are lifestyle changes that men can make?

Cody Sliger: 15:52

my biggest recommendations are prioritizing sleep. That is one that gets taken for granted I mean yes, please so I when I was working as a hospitalist nurse practitioner. I worked seven days on, seven off nights.

Cami Smith: 16:05

I worked seven nights on.

Cody Sliger: 16:06

That is a lot so obviously I did not prioritize sleep and during that time I actually I remember when I went to my primary care provider my liver was showing signs, based on my blood work, that there was some stress on my liver, probably some fatty liver disease developing. My a1c was up, indicating pre-diabetes. I couldn't lose weight no matter what I did. And I would tell him. I said I'm like I'm doing all this stuff but I can't lose weight. And he says, yeah, you're getting like four hours of sleep during a 24 hour period.

Cody Sliger: 16:38

Your body has such a high level of insulin resistance right now that your metabolism is not functioning where it needs to be. And I was amazed that whenever I started working days and actually getting good sleep at night even just six to seven hours of sleep my liver enzymes went down. My A1C went down from 6.1 to 5.6. So good, lost weight. I felt good. Felt good like I'm not sure if I could ever go back to night. So, um, just because, yeah, and I know that definitely some people just love nights, but I like nights, but my body did not so definitely the first thing finding what?

Cody Sliger: 17:15

works, finding what works, prioritizing good, high quality sleep. Second thing is exercise. That's one of the ones that you said is cliche, but exercise really genuinely does help prevent so many conditions. It helps with physical health, helps with mental health, it strengthens the heart, it helps strengthen the, that inner lining of the blood vessels that we discussed, you know just, it keeps our body functioning optimally. Yeah, so exercise, and with that of course comes eating right, which I know that in this day and age, especially going back, it's hard, yeah, especially when you think about men who do work in the trades. They might not have time, like where I come from in Texas, it'd be like, oh, we're going to stop at the stripes and get the biggest breakfast burrito you can think of, because that's all that we can do, exactly, and it's not like there's some refrigerator handy to keep your super healthy meal ready to go in for everyone, like.

Cami Smith: 18:14

Consider how blessed you are, those of you who have that. And but I think you're right, I think that so much of your average person's decisions are circumstantial Right. And so what is that? Well, first, were there any other things? I don't want to jump on your trail here.

Cody Sliger: 18:31

Very, very small changes. I think a lot of people, especially men in my experience men are kind of they're off or on. They don't see things as like on a spectrum. So, offer on there. They don't see things as like on a spectrum. It's either I make a radical change, become a vegan, or I keep doing what we're doing right now. So really talking to men about those small changes, um, you know, very small habits that really will make a difference.

Cami Smith: 18:57

So let's talk about when your circumstances feel like they're against you. Um want to make these changes and you know, maybe this is going to be a difficult question to answer, because we're not in some of these situations but, like, what are ways that men can maintain that physical wellness and mental wellness when they are in maybe less than optimal circumstances to do so, like working a night shift or, or you know, one of the blue collar trades that you talked about, when you're just always on the go, like you've got a lunchbox? It's something that doesn't have to stay cold all day, right, exactly.

Cody Sliger: 19:36

The best thing with that is, you know, like we just talked about making those very small incremental changes. Let's say, let's talk about physical exercise. Okay, so if somebody works a 12-hour job and they don't have time to go to the gym before or after they work, again, we're prioritizing sleep, so I'm not going to go to the gym early in the morning.

Cody Sliger: 19:57

That's not what that means, by the way. I used to tell men like you know what, tell me about your exercise, and they would say, oh, I, you know I'm. I work for the Department of Transportation on the roads. I get plenty of exercise. Okay, when At work, your body gets used to that and that is not true exercise. Unfortunately, I hate to say it.

Cami Smith: 20:18

You have to be intentional.

Cody Sliger: 20:19

If that were the case, from as much walking as I do, I would be super simple.

Cami Smith: 20:23

Wouldn't that be nice, that would be so nice.

Cody Sliger: 20:26

So I'll tell a lot of patients who are asking like, hey, how can I exercise more? It doesn't have to be going to the gym for hours a day, it can literally be walking for an additional 10 minutes of walking five days a week, and a lot of people that tell me like well, that's time I could be using to spend with my family. Get the family involved. If you can Get the kids out with you, even just doing something moderate, vigorous exercise, you know, playing ball with the kids, that can really help. But, like you said, you said the magic word. It's circumstantial. But like you, said you said the magic word.

Cody Sliger: 21:04

It's circumstantial, every body situation is different and I do understand that there is going to be a small number of people that, for whatever reason, it is even more of a challenge to make those healthier choices than the average person. I completely get that. Get that, yeah. But definitely working with a professional like a, you know, a licensed therapist, if we're talking about mental health, or primary care provider, a registered dietitian, to actually help and walk through them with those changes to be a professional support system for that person, to be a third party sounding board that can really help make those small changes more impactful.

Cami Smith: 21:42

Yes. So how do you have these conversations with your patients, because it's got to be a difficult conversation to have. And then, maybe, how can your patients, who are men, who are watching, how can they come in and prepare themselves for these conversations?

Cody Sliger: 22:02

Definitely come in and prepare themselves for these conversations. Definitely, from my standpoint, whenever I have these conversations with my male patients, with men, it's very similar actually to how I would have any kind of conversation with all my patients. But you really have to read the room. I like to see what's going on, what is on this person's plate. Whenever I start a visit that's primary care based, I don't start off with hello, my name is Cody, we're going to do this, this, this, this.

Cody Sliger: 22:29

I always like to tell them tell me a little bit of something about you, tell me about you. And patients always laugh and they're like well, what do you want to know? And I'm like, what do you want to talk about? Yeah, what can I do to help you? I don't know the exact number, but there's a lot of studies that show that providers are more likely to interrupt patients within, I think it's like 15 or 30 seconds of introducing themselves. So like hi, what's your name? And you say Cammie, and like within 30 seconds I'm already like, okay, well, let's stop, let's do this, let's do that.

Cami Smith: 22:58

And so you take the time to have that conversation. Yeah, and it's not a long period of time.

Cody Sliger: 23:03

It's not, you know, an hour, so it's literally just sometimes just a minute. And one thing, another thing that I do with men that I think is really helpful is I'm a list person. I think a lot of men we like to categorize things, and so I'll literally use the review of systems, like we have in our templates that we learn in our medical training, to say, okay, let's, you know, tell me what's going on with you. Nothing, everything's fine, okay. Well, are you having any shortness of breath? No, any chest pain? Yeah, actually Okay. How are your bowel habits? Sometimes there's some blood in my poop. Okay, and like I'm immediately thinking okay, because we we like to be very direct.

Cody Sliger: 23:48

So don't just tell me, how are you how?

Cami Smith: 23:50

is your day. Yeah, what can I help you get specific. Sometimes you have to get specific.

Cody Sliger: 23:55

I feel like I said men a lot of times they compartmentalize and they categorize those things yes, so they're struggling and they categorize those things.

Cami Smith: 24:02

Yes, so they're struggling and they don't have the words really Exactly. So that sounds a little overwhelming to me. I don't do it every day like you do, but to you know that that the it's crucial for someone's health for you to uncover what is happening in their life, and we've actually talked this about this on the podcast before how, how important it is to be honest with your primary care provider. Um, and and you know we're not talking about, like you know, fudge how many drinks you have on the. You always have to like circle. Do you drink alcohol, yes or no? How many drinks do you have weekly?

Cami Smith: 24:40

like okay, we're not talking about that, I mean, although that is important, but what do you do for these men who are suffering silently, or what would you say to them, as, as you are kind of showing a new way of having even a visit with the primary?

Cami Smith: 24:55

care provider, which sounds so much more beneficial. But what would you say to men who are suffering silently right now and even may have answered? They may have been one of those men who answer I'm great, things are great, but as you were even just listing off things, they're like wait a minute.

Cody Sliger: 25:09

Yeah, exactly so. The biggest thing is reach out to your support system, reach out to whoever that is. Is that your spouse, is that your, even if even your adult children, your siblings? The biggest thing is reach out to a primary care provider. That, honestly, is probably my biggest takeaway from today is get established with a primary care provider that you can trust.

Cody Sliger: 25:37

Even if it's something strictly, if mental health is the only concern, still reach out to a primary care provider if you don't know how to get in touch with a psychiatrist or a licensed professional counselor and definitely, in that vein, for men who do go and see licensed professional counselors, mental health therapists, psychiatrists Be honest at those appointments too, when they say, oh hey, how's your depression? It's fine.

Cami Smith: 26:05

No, actually tell them what you're feeling Don't be a hero. Don't be a hero. What's going on?

Cody Sliger: 26:10

Exactly Because by not being a hero in that right, you really are providing the best care for yourself, absolutely, and you're giving yourself the best opportunity to provide care for others that depend on you.

Cami Smith: 26:21

Wow. So what do you think is the most important, strongest message for Men's Health Month, for those who are listening for themselves or for someone they love, what is the biggest takeaway?

Cody Sliger: 26:35

Get a primary care provider.

Cami Smith: 26:36

There you go. Exactly that's so good. Is there anything we didn't cover that you wanted to jump on?

Cody Sliger: 26:43

There are a few things, so a lot of just. Is it okay if I talk about some of the preventative screenings?

Cody Sliger: 26:48

Absolutely yeah, so like I said, colorectal cancer screening when I was in primary care, that was my baby, so to speak, so I know the ins and outs of every kind of colorectal cancer screening you can think of. Stay alive start at 45. All people should get a colorectal cancer screening, starting at age 45. Prostate cancer screening that has changed. A lot of men don't like talking about prostate cancer screening because they are afraid of the actual examination. However, that has changed over the years. Still talk to your primary care provider because now we base it more on a patient-centered conversation. We base it on family history. And then for the younger men out there, testicular cancer is actually the most common form of cancer in younger men. I believe it's age 18 to, I want to say, 30, 40. So definitely, regular self-testicular examinations are just as important as when we talk to women about breast self-examinations, because that early detection really is key to saving a life, absolutely. So that's my biggest takeaway from the prevention part.

Cody Sliger: 28:03

And let's talk real quick about the mental health part, yeah, is if you are experiencing low energy, issues with your sleep, either too much or too little if you're experiencing issues with poor appetite or overeating, those could be signs that you are experiencing depression or other mental health conditions. And if you are experiencing a mental health crisis and you don't know what to do, one thing that I like to tell all patients, men and women alike, is 988. That is our national suicide hotline. Those are people that can tell you where you need to go, to, who you need to call, what you need to do to keep yourself safe, because you do not have to suffer in silence. And, with that being said to all the men out there, you are not alone.

Cody Sliger: 28:51

In the advent of social media, there are so many online Facebook groups. You know. Reddit groups, you know, even in person definitely in person groups for men, because, as humans, we are not islands. We do not function 100% independently in a silo. We are creatures who are designed to live in a community. Yeah, I think a lot of times, men, we don't do that. We like to just hide, we like to burrow, we like to become hermits. But definitely reach out to other men in your life and have those hard conversations. Yeah, talk to them about what's going on mentally. Talk about what's going on physically, because the odds are is that what one man is experiencing is something that another man has also experienced For you, but also for those people around you who may be suffering in silence right now and you just don't know it.

Cami Smith: 29:43

And so such a powerful message. Thank you, of course. Thank you, so thankful that you took some time to come on here and have this conversation. If you guys want to learn more about Cody, he is on our website, you can see his provider profile and you were also recently in a podcast.

Cody Sliger: 29:59

What was the name of that podcast? So I was in a podcast recently, my brother-in-law and myself. We have a podcast, the Untitled Dadcast. Oh, I love it. So if you want to hear a little bit less medical and more philosophy of being a dad, check that out. It's on Spotify and iTunes as well.

Cami Smith: 30:22

All right, thank, and so much more.